Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by coqui_chris » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:05 pm

I mean not for nothin' but not everyone who drinks is into being in a union, but what I literally said was ...

1) on the website for "come here if you love drinking alcohol," I don't think "union workers love to drink alcohol" is a good put-down.

2) I clearly pointed out how collective-bargaining agreements nowadays with technology carry the caveat of not only random drug AND ALCOHOL testing but electronic surveillance. So if anything, its the union workers saying, "I'll gladly work for you today without pay to get paid for a beer tomorrow"
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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by Girlie » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:32 pm

coqui_chris wrote:
Girlie wrote:
coqui_chris wrote:Like unions or not, self-employed or stand united, I'd just like to point out that an argument was made against union workers for drinking beer. In a bar. On the Modern DRUNKARD Magazine site.
Where and when did that occur?
On the Modern Drunkard Board. Where I said it occurred.
NYDingbat wrote: I also saw foremen catching installers IN THE BAR during working hours when they were supposed to be, y'know, installing phones, suspend them, only to see the union grieve the suspension and get the layabouts their suspension money back....
So I won't be boycotting any company that is standing up to unreasonable union demands.
Got it. Fair enough - you're right, that did occur. Nonetheless, I can't condone the practice of drinking at the bar your employer's dime and expecting to not have to pay the price when you are caught - drunkard board or not. If you think it's cool to drink on the clock, so be it, but man up if you get caught. Personal responsibility..blah blah blah..

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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by Girlie » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:54 pm

coqui_chris wrote: Image
This meme is interesting, but not very credible. If you Google this phrase, the only citations are on union sites, not even the Toronto Globe and Mail.

So, I went to the Globe and Mail website to research their archive to see if I could find this story there. It's not there either.

SO....I called the Globe and Mail (yes, I really did) and asked them how I could verify a reference to a story cited to them from their paper in 1886. They said that one would have to go to (a physical visit) the reference library to look it up for verification.

SOOOO...

"Unions are Clever about Fooling the People Who Line Their Pockets" -
Toronto Globe and Mail - June 1887

(Yeah - that YouTube video doesn't lend any credibility either. I watched it and it added no credibility)

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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by Girlie » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:03 pm

And just so you know where I'm coming from. Having worked in HR, I have a pretty good deal of experience dealing with unions. I'll give you a bit of history:

1. My first union experience was an eye-opener. Newly on the job in HR, we were coming up on negotiations. The union employees where I worked had crappy union supplied benefits. (It was a self-funded union Health and Welfare plan that the union employees paid $10 a pay to have. The plan had a $10,000 LIFETIME limit and other ridiculously pathetic benefits.) The union employees wanted to have the same health plan options as the non-union employees. A fully funded (no limit) Blue Cross Blue Shied option. My Executive Director brought that up to the union and the union said "no". Why? Because if we offered that to the employees, they'd lose revenue (since the plan payed so little in benefit). My Executive Director fought (ON BEHALF OF THE UNION EMPLOYEES) a number of times and eventually we were able to secure them the right to BUY INTO the non-union plan, but only at a higher per pay deduction than the payed for the crappy union health and welfare plan - which was more than the non-union employees paid. That was the only way they'd agree to it.

2. My second union experience was not much better. The union was VERY interested in making sure that the Checkoff List (the union dues submission invoice) was accurate more than anything else. I was charged with the research and found that the union was attempting to charge the employer with over $77,000 in back union dues that could not be validated! The crazy part was that even with their overestimate, there were dues built into that number that they didn't credit (I did) for new hires where we provided them union cards.

This same union would come in and tell the employees that we would fire them if they voted the union out (no we wouldn't, I worked 10 hour days and at least 7 of them were on recruiting). The employees would complain to me about how little the union does for them and I, as a management rep, couldn't say anything other than a very generic, "You could vote them out if you don't find they are representing you well."

We fired an employee for sleeping on the job (at a nursing home, in an empty resident bed with the covers pulled over her) and the employee asked for union arbitration. The union rep (all 300 pounds, mu-mu wearing, missing teeth, but nice car driving..) came into my office, we closed the door and she said, "We all know you have every right to fire her, so we can just sit here and talk for a while."

3. Third union experience - at negotiations, the union shop stewards were the worst employees on the floor. Other employees were fantastic. The union stewards, since they had seniority, wanted first dibs on over-time (reasonable), but they were the ones who were the worst abusers of the absenteeism policy - they managed calling out just to the point of getting fired then backed off until they were free and clear again. Management wanted to negotiate (and we won this one too) to make it a win-win. Seniority would prevail in overtime requests, BUT if you called out or were late (for early overtime), it counted against your call out record. The stewards gave us the hardest time about this point because they wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted (FOR THEMSELVES) to have first dibs (and block out the responsible workers from getting a shot) at overtime, but not have to pay the price if they no showed. Most of our negotiations focused on this topic. WE, the employer (and the good employees) won, the union and the crummy "stewards" lost.

4. A client union story. Client has union and non-union employees. Union employees want to vote the union out. They officially do so on March 5th (or so). The union obliges, but rescinds their union health coverage effective February 1st! (If you quit an employer, your coverage usually lasts until the end of the month or the same day that you quit, but NEVER retroactively - at least legally.) The employer asked for us to intervene and help the former union employees to make sure they get on the health plan effective February 1st so they would be covered.

I have more - mostly examples of how the private sector unions negotiate poorly for the employees they represent.

BUT, if you do good work for your employer, you don't need a union. IF your employer still tries to screw you over, you have other options. I don't need to pay money out of my pocket for someone to poorly represent me and neither does anyone else - your work output speaks for you.

End rant...

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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by Screwball » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:48 pm

The only reason I'm making decent money, decent work van and health insurance for the first time in my life is because the company I work for is a non-union branch of a union sprinkler company. Best job I have ever had in my life.

Ok, I probably could have made a better choice of a career but Dammit I am proud of being a fire alarm tech. When my system goes off there is a reason- to get people out of a building when they need to get the fuck out.

Plus, all the "mom and pop" shops will fuck you over pay wise by not paying overtime. Why? Because they can.


I'm sorry if this is kinda rambling post but I'm just a bit worn out from getting to work around 4am(school f/a inspection time). At least I'm getting paid for the overtime, finally.


P.S. I'm not trying to start no shit. Just telling ya'll about my life as a working class mofo.

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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by GSG » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:06 pm

I'm not sure I know any teachers here who AREN'T in unions. It's a form of self-preservation really. If some parent decides to sue you because their imbecile offspring has had an accident whilst dicking about on your school trip, you need a union. If a malevolent child or adult (I've heard of both trying to destroy careers and lives in only five years of teaching) make up an allegation about you somehow abusing pupils, you need a union. They would be the ones to foot the bill if it went to court. I couldn't afford it. Our unions are also supposed to defend you in the case of workplace bullying but in reality they do fuck all to help in that area. But they do send me a wall planner and several free pens a year, so every cloud.
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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by Girlie » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:00 pm

Screwball wrote:The only reason I'm making decent money, decent work van and health insurance for the first time in my life is because the company I work for is a non-union branch of a union sprinkler company. Best job I have ever had in my life.

Ok, I probably could have made a better choice of a career but Dammit I am proud of being a fire alarm tech. When my system goes off there is a reason- to get people out of a building when they need to get the fuck out.

Plus, all the "mom and pop" shops will fuck you over pay wise by not paying overtime. Why? Because they can.


I'm sorry if this is kinda rambling post but I'm just a bit worn out from getting to work around 4am(school f/a inspection time). At least I'm getting paid for the overtime, finally.


P.S. I'm not trying to start no shit. Just telling ya'll about my life as a working class mofo.
I'm glad to hear that you are making good money and are happy with your employer and employment. But, ALL the mom and pop shops won't fuck you over because they can. But some will only if you let them. There are laws to prevent this. (And please don't take this as me saying that it's your fault, but there are avenues to use, we should use them.)

If people are so ready to use a union that they pay to help them remedy this kind of crap, why aren't they willing to use the laws (that we pay for in tax dollars) to help as well?

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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by Girlie » Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:12 pm

GinSoakedGirl wrote:I'm not sure I know any teachers here who AREN'T in unions. It's a form of self-preservation really. If some parent decides to sue you because their imbecile offspring has had an accident whilst dicking about on your school trip, you need a union. If a malevolent child or adult (I've heard of both trying to destroy careers and lives in only five years of teaching) make up an allegation about you somehow abusing pupils, you need a union. They would be the ones to foot the bill if it went to court. I couldn't afford it. Our unions are also supposed to defend you in the case of workplace bullying but in reality they do fuck all to help in that area. But they do send me a wall planner and several free pens a year, so every cloud.
There are plenty of non-union teachers in the US, but most are union. Not because the union protects them from lawsuits, but because the public (tax payer provided) systems are all union and only the private institutions are or tend to be non-union. I could go on about that, but the whole voucher thing is another conversation.

If a child here is "dicking about" on a school trip, the school system has insurance to care for that, the union has no involvement. Unless, that is, if the teacher actually has some possible culpability in the matter. Then, the school pays for the lawsuit and the union may fight to keep the teacher's job. But usually, the school systems around here pander to the unions rather than the children they are supposed to protect.

In many cases, the teacher actually gets to keep their job even when they shouldn't. In one local case, a teacher's aide verbally abuse an autistic child while the lead teacher leads the class and does nothing about - the aide does (thankfully) get fired, but the teacher who does nothing to stop abuse in front of her gets transferred to another school instead of losing her job like she should have. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfkscHt96R0 This was actually pretty big news in our area. Did the union help this child? No, they protected the one who stood by and allowed him to be abused. Did the dad sue the teacher or the aide? Not that anyone knows of (to be fair, it could be that they aren't permitted to talk about this, but the suit would be with the school, not the teacher).

And really, why would anyone sue a teacher when they could sue the school system? Lawyers (in the US, at least) go for the money - the school system has much deeper pockets than the teachers. Even in the CA case where the teacher fed his students his own semen, he was criminally prosecuted and the district was the defendent in the civil suit ( http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... okies.html) So, still no need for unions to protect teachers from lawsuits.

Nope - Still say that the unions feed workers the poison just so they can sell them the snake oil....er..antidote.

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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by coqui_chris » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:15 am

Girlie wrote:
coqui_chris wrote:[quote="Girlie"

On the Modern Drunkard Board. Where I said it occurred.
NYDingbat wrote: I also saw foremen catching installers IN THE BAR during working hours when they were supposed to be, y'know, installing phones, suspend them, only to see the union grieve the suspension and get the layabouts their suspension money back....
So I won't be boycotting any company that is standing up to unreasonable union demands.
Got it. Fair enough - you're right, that did occur. Nonetheless, I can't condone the practice of drinking at the bar your employer's dime and expecting to not have to pay the price when you are caught - drunkard board or not. If you think it's cool to drink on the clock, so be it, but man up if you get caught. Personal responsibility..blah blah blah..
http://drunkard.com/issues/07_03/07-03-faded-glory.htm
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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by coqui_chris » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:20 am

Girlie wrote:
Screwball wrote:The only reason I'm making decent money, decent work van and health insurance for the first time in my life is because the company I work for is a non-union branch of a union sprinkler company. Best job I have ever had in my life.

Ok, I probably could have made a better choice of a career but Dammit I am proud of being a fire alarm tech. When my system goes off there is a reason- to get people out of a building when they need to get the fuck out.

Plus, all the "mom and pop" shops will fuck you over pay wise by not paying overtime. Why? Because they can.


I'm sorry if this is kinda rambling post but I'm just a bit worn out from getting to work around 4am(school f/a inspection time). At least I'm getting paid for the overtime, finally.


P.S. I'm not trying to start no shit. Just telling ya'll about my life as a working class mofo.
I'm glad to hear that you are making good money and are happy with your employer and employment. But, ALL the mom and pop shops won't fuck you over because they can. But some will only if you let them. There are laws to prevent this. (And please don't take this as me saying that it's your fault, but there are avenues to use, we should use them.)

If people are so ready to use a union that they pay to help them remedy this kind of crap, why aren't they willing to use the laws (that we pay for in tax dollars) to help as well?
Lawyers cost money. And scabs take your job. Organizing so that there is a procedure and a bank account from which you can draw financial support for arbitration puts power into the working classes' hands.
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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by coqui_chris » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:40 am

GinSoakedGirl wrote:I'm not sure I know any teachers here who AREN'T in unions. It's a form of self-preservation really. If some parent decides to sue you because their imbecile offspring has had an accident whilst dicking about on your school trip, you need a union. If a malevolent child or adult (I've heard of both trying to destroy careers and lives in only five years of teaching) make up an allegation about you somehow abusing pupils, you need a union. They would be the ones to foot the bill if it went to court. I couldn't afford it. Our unions are also supposed to defend you in the case of workplace bullying but in reality they do fuck all to help in that area. But they do send me a wall planner and several free pens a year, so every cloud.
One amazing thing happening around the United States is in the area of charter schools. Charter schools are a phenomenon that occurred when people who "don't like big govmint in my lives" and are wary of a "nanny state" decided to create federal big government standardized testing regulations to aggregate schools. Sounds a lot like big government and a nanny state, though, right? No no, it doesn't, swear to God.

So anyways based on these test scores if they come in lousy a school loses federal government funding, and the students are allowed to attend a school that is subsidized and tax-exempt that is administrated by the For-Profit Corporation who WROTE THE PUBLIC SCHOOL'S TESTS. Hey, but wait a minute, CC ... can't that corporation just write an impossible test to guarantee failure and then grab all those profits? No no its totally not. Its for the children.

Either way, we now have these charter schools, right, and they are eating school districts apart from the inside like aphids or termites.

Now ... About that argument that teacher's unions are the reasons for big-city school districts failures, right? Part of the Charter School's propaganda was that without the teacher's union in the way, they could really teach children effectively.

But wait a minute ... those For-Profit Schools who don't pay taxes and receive all kinds of government write-offs weren't paying their teachers a living wage. Their benefits were sub-standard. Their retirement packages didn't offer enough security for the amount of hard-work and dedication that had been put into the previous years of service.

Now how could a teacher, or a group of teachers who arrive at the very same conclusion possibly look to remedy that?

http://articles.philly.com/2013-06-27/n ... -principal
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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by coqui_chris » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:47 am

And they call the unions the thugs??????

http://www.labourstartcampaigns.net/sho ... cgi?c=1879
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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by GSG » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:57 am

coqui_chris wrote:So anyways based on these test scores if they come in lousy a school loses federal government funding, and the students are allowed to attend a school that is subsidized and tax-exempt that is administrated by the For-Profit Corporation who WROTE THE PUBLIC SCHOOL'S TESTS. Hey, but wait a minute, CC ... can't that corporation just write an impossible test to guarantee failure and then grab all those profits? No no its totally not. Its for the children.
And people are really OK with the education of their children being fucked about with in this way? If I was in their situation I would definitely be trying to get into a union. And the 'it's for the children' thing that people chuck about? It's only ever chucked about by people who don't give a shit about them.

Interesting story Chris, cheers.
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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by coqui_chris » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:09 pm

GinSoakedGirl wrote:
coqui_chris wrote:So anyways based on these test scores if they come in lousy a school loses federal government funding, and the students are allowed to attend a school that is subsidized and tax-exempt that is administrated by the For-Profit Corporation who WROTE THE PUBLIC SCHOOL'S TESTS. Hey, but wait a minute, CC ... can't that corporation just write an impossible test to guarantee failure and then grab all those profits? No no its totally not. Its for the children.
And people are really OK with the education of their children being fucked about with in this way? If I was in their situation I would definitely be trying to get into a union. And the 'it's for the children' thing that people chuck about? It's only ever chucked about by people who don't give a shit about them.

Interesting story Chris, cheers.
Well remember when I was told on this thread that unions make a big deal about managerial and CEO salaries?

Guess what happens the first time a union employee gets into a contract?

Company: He gets paid this much! He gets this much vacation! He gets sick days! He gets medicine!
Rabble: Sick days? Medicine? $50k when I only get $20k? What a greedy bastard or bitch!

So yes, people are ok with this testing because they are told that the "greedy" teachers aren't educating the students adequately.


Also, lets note that charter schools are ALWAYS imposed on low-income, low-tax-base neighborhoods. If they're so great, put charter schools in Cherry Hill, Gladwynne, Radnor, Armonk, White Plains, the Hamptons.
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Re: Boycott Labatt's ... Beer's full of scabs

Post by GSG » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:17 pm

coqui_chris wrote:Also, lets note that charter schools are ALWAYS imposed on low-income, low-tax-base neighborhoods. If they're so great, put charter schools in Cherry Hill, Gladwynne, Radnor, Armonk, White Plains, the Hamptons.
Bloody good point. I'm pissed off on your behalf.

Although I confess that I only recognised the Hamptons as a posh neighbourhood. Learning is fun!
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