Scary Shit

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Re: Scary Shit

Post by GSG » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:44 am

So you didn't know the 'jackass' who tried to commit suicide then?

Also, you say you found the procedure that you underwent with the camera quite painful. If you had to have that procedure administered for two hours twice a day for an extended period of time, I'm really struggling to see how that ISN'T torture. This chap may be overacting - I don't know because no-one has ever shoved a feeding tube down my nose - but I'm not sure how the wider point that torturing people is wrong is being missed.
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Re: Scary Shit

Post by mistah willies » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:00 pm

Palinka wrote: Would I allow someone who has not given their consent to bleed for my country? Fuck, no.
There's only one country and it is the country of the Human. Suffering a tube through the nose VS. slow deeath through self starvation? Slf imolation.. or self bomnbing?

Intreseting discussion good Dr..


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Re: Scary Shit

Post by Mr. Viking » Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:23 am

I've always thought that if somebody wishes to starve themselves to death, they should be allowed. I think they have clearly not taken a snap decision and have plenty of time to change their minds. I also think that any "treatment" that lasts two hours seems unnecessarily long, how much food are they being given?
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Re: Scary Shit

Post by ThirstyDrunk » Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:29 am

Mr. Viking wrote:, how much food are they being given?
Exactly two southwest chicken flavored Taquitos, from a microwave.
To be fair, I'm drunker than you.

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Re: Scary Shit

Post by Girlie » Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:46 pm

GinSoakedGirl wrote:So you didn't know the 'jackass' who tried to commit suicide then?
No, I did not. I was (and guess still am) admittedly bitter about the fact that my medical intervention had to wait for a person who put himself in that position. My point is, that he was obviously in pain for the medical intervention that probably saved his life. But, even though it caused him obvious pain and was against his will, it was a life saving intervention, not torture.
GinSoakedGirl wrote:Also, you say you found the procedure that you underwent with the camera quite painful. If you had to have that procedure administered for two hours twice a day for an extended period of time, I'm really struggling to see how that ISN'T torture. This chap may be overacting - I don't know because no-one has ever shoved a feeding tube down my nose - but I'm not sure how the wider point that torturing people is wrong is being missed.
Yes, it was, but I also mentioned that I was seven years old and that my last bee sting at seven seemed like a most painful thing to happen. I was giving a personal reference to an overly dramatic example.

I should also mention that my first HR job (referenced in the union or anti-union thread depending on your point of view) was in a long term care facility. Many of the residents there were unable to swallow due to physical deficiencies. The appropriate medical intervention in their cases were to order and supply a feeding tube. These were very old and frail adults who couldn't control their swallowing even after months of therapeutic intervention. The end result was to provide them with a means of providing nutritional requirements via a feeding tube just like the one you see in the video. It was a common-place procedure. There was never any screaming like you see in this propaganda driven video due to this procedure even in the most vocal residents (even dear Harvey, who screamed out for help just to get someone to talk to him and engage in conversation). It's routine for crying out loud. I could easily overact in a video of me getting an IV to prevent me from being dehydrated, but that doesn't make a medical intervention torture.

Perhaps anything that some object to being subjected to should equate to torture is the issue. In that case, we could argue that just about anything that doesn't suit these men (terrorists?) would be torture? It just doesn't fly with me. I'm not hurting for the people who try to starve themselves and claim they are the victims when doctors try to save their lives after they've hurt others. I'm not condoning torture, but this is not it.

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Re: Scary Shit

Post by peetie44 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:10 pm

ThirstyDrunk wrote:
Mr. Viking wrote:, how much food are they being given?
Exactly two southwest chicken flavored Taquitos, from a microwave.
Nuked at 1,000 watts or...?
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Re: Scary Shit

Post by GSG » Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:15 pm

As unfortunate as it is that you has to wait for medical treatment because a man felt so utterly bereft of hope that he felt the only option he had was to take his own life, the two situations are not the same. As for the other point, if we leave aside the force feeding issue for a moment (I am still unsure of how I feel about it to be honest) then what about the other tortures and degradations these men suffer? You say they're terrorists who have hurt others - why have so many of them been there for over a decade without charge? It seems like many of them may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time (see my previous link). They might be terrorists? Sure they might, but that isn't how we're supposed to do it is it? Make an accusation and worry about trifling things like evidence later (WMD anyone?) - it's not a highlight for justice. Of course then I would argue that even if they were found as guilty as anyone has ever been found of anything, we STILL shouldn't be torturing them. To my mind there are only three reasons to torture someone - to extract information, retribution or someone gets off on it. I don't think any of these at justifiable in a supposedly civilised society. It makes us no better than the people we're supposed to be against.
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Re: Scary Shit

Post by coqui_chris » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:37 am

They don't have to force-feed them. They could always ... ya know ... PUT THEM ON TRIAL.
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Re: Scary Shit

Post by Palinka (RIP) » Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:43 pm

coqui_chris wrote:They don't have to force-feed them. They could always ... ya know ... PUT THEM ON TRIAL.
It doesn't seem to be in most governments' interest, though...
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Re: Scary Shit

Post by Patchez » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:29 am

Has anyone taken into consideration that some of the people in question may actually be..... terrorists?

You know, involved in the killing of soldiers and civilians alike? Wanton destruction at random for the sake of, what, religion?

Let them choose their own way out, trial and punishment, or suicide by starvation.

Either way, no virgins for them.
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Re: Scary Shit

Post by Palinka (RIP) » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:54 am

Patchez wrote:Has anyone taken into consideration that some of the people in question may actually be..... terrorists?...
Indeed. However, as your statement makes clear, that means that some of them might actually...be innocent! And whatever happened to the whole, "innocent until proven guilty by a jury of one's peers" thing? Not incidentally, one of the things that your country fought for, in it's struggle for independence from mine.
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Re: Scary Shit

Post by greygoose1 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:55 am

Mr. Viking wrote:I've always thought that if somebody wishes to starve themselves to death, they should be allowed. I think they have clearly not taken a snap decision and have plenty of time to change their minds. I also think that any "treatment" that lasts two hours seems unnecessarily long, how much food are they being given?
1. Why the hell does America have a U.S. base on an island that won't allow it's own citizens travel visas to visit it and contribute to it's entirely absence of an economy only because of politics?
2. I agree that Gitmo should be closed. Problem is, no countries want to accept these prisoners. So what do we do?
3. America has become such a litigious society that if they were allowed to starve themselves, the DOJ and the Pentagon would be up to their asses in lawsuits for the next 40 years (or so).

Bad policy. I can agree with that.
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Re: Scary Shit

Post by peetie44 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:30 pm

The problem with having these suspected terrorists locked up at Gitmo is that it's been a huge legal, political and humanitarian quagmire almost from the the git-go.

Immediately following 9/11 and the subsequent Afghanistan invasion, all sorts of suspected terrorists were rounded up and thrown into Gitmo. The same policy held true early on during the Iraq invasion and occupation, though most suspected terrorists there ended up in Abu Ghraib prison, where responsibility for them was eventually given over to Iraqi authorities.

Since the Gitmo terrorist suspects were foreigners/non-US citizens (there were a handful US citizens detained), the Bush administration labeled them "enemy combatants", making it legal under US law to hold them indefinitely without trial. This was an expedient move at the time by the Bush admin because they could demonstrate to a then-frightened-of-their-own-shadows American public that the USA was out there kicking ass, taking names and getting terrorists off the streets.

The key, at least in the short term, was not having to bring these people to trial in a reasonably speedy time frame, which would've likely left the Bush admin, the Justice Department and the military with a lot of egg on their faces. Because, as we have slowly learned over time, the chances of actually getting clear convictions against the majority of these suspects was/is between slim and none, as most were arrested based on flimsy, circumstantial evidence and/or on the word of local, paid informants. Bush was able to stall his way through his 2nd term without putting these people on trial or releasing them -- which would've had its own negative political ramifications -- and simply dropped the mess in Obama's lap.

Now we're left with the same problems and still no clearcut, easy way out. Even after going to all the trouble and expense of rounding up and incarcerating these people for so long (some of them have been held for 10yrs or more), the majority of them, if not all, probably still can't be convicted under either a civil trial or a military tribunal, as there apparently remains little, known, hard evidence directly linking them to actual terrorist activities.

And that's where the fun begins. Since the average American tends to believe "well, they had to have done SOMETHING pretty bad for the good ol' USA to lock them up for this long", simply releasing a group of suspected terrorists en masse -- even if they were known to be wrongly accused -- would be political suicide for the democrats, who already must fight the notion that they're weak on national security. But to continue to hold these people without trial is humanely unfair and has become its own black eye on the American justice system, as evidenced and highlighted by the recent hunger strikes. Yet, to put them on trial, costing who knows what kind of time and $$$, only to watch the majority be eventually found not guilty, would be a humiliating cherry-on-top for the Obama admin, the Justice Dept and the military.

Finally, no other country on the planet, whose government has even one collective brain cell, would be willing to take America's legal, political and humanitarian mess off our hands, unless that country would receive the kinds of $$$$, military, trade, etc, concessions/favors that I couldn't (and wouldn't want to) even imagine.
Last edited by peetie44 on Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:05 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Scary Shit

Post by Palinka (RIP) » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:55 pm

There is no "good" answer but I hope that habeas corpus, amongst other rights are soon returned.
I am fairly sure that those imprisoned at Gitmo would be cool with a ticket home (right now).
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Re: Scary Shit

Post by peetie44 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:20 pm

Palinka wrote:There is no "good" answer but I hope that habeas corpus, amongst other rights are soon returned.
I am fairly sure that those imprisoned at Gitmo would be cool with a ticket home (right now).
As far as I know, virtually all of the post-9/11, Muslim terrorist suspects are still being held as "enemy combatants" -- therefore, no civilian habeas corpus rights. Also, I believe (but not positive) that some of their countries of origin have indicated that they won't accept/repatriate them. It's a mess.
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