NFL; Racism and Homophobia

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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by Lush City »

GinSoakedGirl wrote:Oh, and finding the word homophobic offensive smacks rather of 'poor me, people are oppressing my right to be oppressive'.
Here's the deal my dear, it's when these minorities that you have linked up with try to force their values onto the public by using the government to censure speech and elicit fees and penalties for not obeying the edicts is when I get really pissed. How about Obamacare requiring religious institutions that provide healthcare to include coverage for birth control and abortion. This is still in litigation. Forcing a Christian baker in Phoenix to make a gay wedding cake or else suffer fines is the latest example. This is fucking tyranny and you that continue to push this crap are really asking for a war.
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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by Palinka (RIP) »

Lush City wrote:...and you [...] are really asking for a war.
Well, that's odd because I read it that what GinSoakedGirl and the others are asking for is peace, love and understanding. In fact, the only one that has become bellicose (and talked of "war"), is you.

If you want to express your opinions in a way that might make others consider them, at all, I would suggest that using language that implies violence, may not be the best way of going about it.

Just a thought.
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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by GSG »

Lush City wrote:
GinSoakedGirl wrote:Oh, and finding the word homophobic offensive smacks rather of 'poor me, people are oppressing my right to be oppressive'.
Here's the deal my dear, it's when these minorities that you have linked up with try to force their values onto the public by using the government to censure speech and elicit fees and penalties for not obeying the edicts is when I get really pissed. How about Obamacare requiring religious institutions that provide healthcare to include coverage for birth control and abortion. This is still in litigation. Forcing a Christian baker in Phoenix to make a gay wedding cake or else suffer fines is the latest example. This is fucking tyranny and you that continue to push this crap are really asking for a war.
It isn't tyranny, it's the demand that you don't allow your offence spill over into discrimination. You are offended by something - so what? As you said in your first post, being offended is YOUR problem. Using your offence as a justification for discrimination makes it everyone else's problem. What about people who are offended by a black person marrying a white person? Is it ok to discriminate then? Before you tell me that's a ridiculous comparison, consider that both situations rely on someone objecting to something when they have no logical argument for doing so. If it's your opinion then fine (well actually not fine, bit at least different), but acting on it is not ok. I'd just like one logical reason for the objection to treating homosexuals as less worthy of consideration and respect than anyone else. And saying you don't want homosexuality being forced down your throat (now there's an image) whilst forcing your beliefs down everyone else's is a massive double standard.
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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by Resident Asshole »

For my part, having a belief and stating it when asked is not wrong. As for the valid argument against homosexuals marrying...

Marriage is a religious institution and marriage benefits were given because family is good for society. Some who have studied family structure show that the best family structure is with a man and a woman.

So, some people argue that while civil unions exist for the purpose of legally allowing homosexuals to bind themselves together, marriage should always be reserved for 1 man and 1 woman.

This is not discrimination, nor hate it is just understanding that marriage was defined by religious influx and so personally if I were gay I would not want to change a religious definition to suit my own purposes.

I do fully support equal rights, but changing a religious definition to suit our own purposes is not the way to have equality.

I would not expect a church to allow me to get drunk inside it because they believe it is wrong. Likewise I would not ask them to marry me to a man. I think this matter comes down to respect and the church has every right to believe that something is wrong. I respect their stance just as the church should respect the beliefs of homosexuals.

I think many people think that just because I disagree with the way someone lives their life means that I am somehow a bigot. I don't agree with my friends who live off unemployment and cheat the system. But I don't hit them in the face, call them names or treat them as lesser people, I simply disagree with their lifestyle.
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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by Palinka (RIP) »

You are being a tad disingenuous there, RA, taking the notion of homophobia and comparing it with respect for The Church.

In any case, The Church (and I'm not sure which one you are talking about but for the sake of argument, we'll talk about The Roman Catholic Church) has changed its views many times. Is anyone going to argue that killing a "witch" shouldn't be punishable by law? Or that slavery is justified? Or express a belief in the divine right of kings?

The Church, like the law and the society that both reflect is constantly mutable.
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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by Frankennietzsche »

Marriage is a social contract that bestows upon those who enter into it certain benefits with regards to the other entrant, common property, taxes and a variety of life decisions that society has deemed a couple who engage in this contract are more likely to be successful. The civic/secular recognition of this new, married contracted couple is regardless of the fact that this contract was officiated by a cleric of whatever creed or a judge, captain or Elvis, as long as they have the paperwork. A religious organization's recognition of this contract has nothing to do with the government recognizing it. If people get married in any church, they aren't married in the eyes of the government unless they have also filled out the necessary paperwork.

I do not believe that the marriage-equality folks are asking for any church or cult to recognize their rights to enter into this contract, just the various governments.
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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by GSG »

I think you make an interesting point, RA, but as frankennietzsche says marriage is not purely a religious ceremony. I'm not sure it ever was, but even if we assume that marriage was a religious contract then surely that definition already changed the moment you could be married in a secular ceremony? I don't know about the US, but if you have a civil ceremony in the UK you aren't allowed to make any mention of God - some councils object to the Robbie Williams song 'Angels' being played (even though that's actually a song about strippers). If marriage now has different meanings amongst heterosexuals, why can this definition not be expanded in the secular arena to include same sex couplings? Civil partnerships were introduced here as an equivalent to marriage for same sex relationships and for many that was enough. However for others, they didn't want to be 'othered' with a different name.

As has been noted previously, no-one is expecting churches to perform gay marriages through gritted teeth but it's my belief that they'll eventually come round to the idea. Some vicars in the Church of England will bless a gay marriage even though they haven't performed the ceremony themselves. Religious teachings are in no way set in stone - they have always been fluid and adaptable to the circumstances they find themselves in. I can give loads of examples of common Christian practises that are no longer observed. Don't worry though, I won't, because I'll bore myself to sleep as well as everyone else.
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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by Bur »

While I agree with points GSG is making at least in Finland the general idea seems to be that churches are split between this matter (most naturally are towards conservative leaning here) and it is time for them to adapt to the ages ahead.

While I do not know the exact legal fine points here, I do know couple of gay and lesbian pairs who are engaged in "registered legal relationship" which for all matters and purposes seems to be the same thing as marriage for the most parts. Thus is Finland (at least from viewpoint media gives) the gay marriage is being pushed towards religious institutions.

I think I will actually check these matters today because I've got a sick day off from work.

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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by GSG »

Churches (and other religious groups) tend to be reactionary rather than too forward thinking, but I think that's the norm for any big and established institution. Changes in government policy on social issues for example rarely seem to come about by themselves but seem to reflect changing attitudes in society, but I'm prepared to be wrong on that one.
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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by Resident Asshole »

GinSoakedGirl wrote:As has been noted previously, no-one is expecting churches to perform gay marriages through gritted teeth but it's my belief that they'll eventually come round to the idea.
Here in many parts of the US, churches are absolutely expected to perform gay marriage through gritted teeth. There have already been several lawsuits over this. Right there is my biggest problem. Sure if the church decides to come around to it that is their decision. If not, why are we forcing them? This whole issue is supposed to be about freedom and equality right? Well the church has just as much right to choose not to perform a marriage as the couple has a right to their lifestyle.

For instance, at my church you have to go through marriage counseling prior to them marrying you. If you don't like that, I don't believe you should be suing them over it. Frankly I would never want to force someone else to do something just because I have a different view than them. It seems that some of the activists here in the US talk out of both sides of their mouth, saying that everyone should be free to do as they please but they only believe in freedom when you agree with everything they believe in.
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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by GSG »

Ah now I wasn't aware of that. I think it's a bit silly to force churches into it, I do agree with you there, especially if there are plenty of other places (and possibly even churches) where a person can get married without upsetting everyone. I suppose what I'm after is dialogue and compromise. Without it there'll never be any positive changes in society.
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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by ThirstyDrunk »

I think they should outlaw gay divorce.
Then see if the gays want to go on with it.
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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by Frankennietzsche »

There was an article in the local paper about a lesbian couple in Kentucky somewhere, that, after having been married in a state that allows it were trying to get a divorce. Since the Commonwealth currently doesn't recognize their union, they cannot get divorced here. So, federally, they are married until they can both get back to whatever state in which they were married.
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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by mistah willies »

^

Occam's Razor?

Y aknow, for a hairy shituation

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Re: NFL; Racism and Homophobia

Post by Lush City »

GinSoakedGirl wrote:
Lush City wrote:
GinSoakedGirl wrote:Oh, and finding the word homophobic offensive smacks rather of 'poor me, people are oppressing my right to be oppressive'.
Here's the deal my dear, it's when these minorities that you have linked up with try to force their values onto the public by using the government to censure speech and elicit fees and penalties for not obeying the edicts is when I get really pissed. How about Obamacare requiring religious institutions that provide healthcare to include coverage for birth control and abortion. This is still in litigation. Forcing a Christian baker in Phoenix to make a gay wedding cake or else suffer fines is the latest example. This is fucking tyranny and you that continue to push this crap are really asking for a war.
It isn't tyranny, it's the demand that you don't allow your offence spill over into discrimination. You are offended by something - so what? As you said in your first post, being offended is YOUR problem. Using your offence as a justification for discrimination makes it everyone else's problem. What about people who are offended by a black person marrying a white person? Is it ok to discriminate then? Before you tell me that's a ridiculous comparison, consider that both situations rely on someone objecting to something when they have no logical argument for doing so. If it's your opinion then fine (well actually not fine, bit at least different), but acting on it is not ok. I'd just like one logical reason for the objection to treating homosexuals as less worthy of consideration and respect than anyone else. And saying you don't want homosexuality being forced down your throat (now there's an image) whilst forcing your beliefs down everyone else's is a massive double standard.
You really don't see what I'm pointing out. There is a war on freedom of choice and association. Are you with me so far? You discriminate everyday and make choices based on your preferences which include people based on their attributes. This is human. Suddenly a minority has taken over the major media platforms and is now dictating who is cool and who is not and government is used as a lever to make people conform. That's all I'm saying and it will cause a rebellion because it goes deep. So why don't people just back off? I'm not the bellicose one. What you think of me is none of my business. I will move on. There are those that need to correct what they think is not polite. That is not cool.
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