Question regarding Charleston

This is where you let you can let it all hang out.

Moderators: Badfellow, One for the Frog, Artful Drunktective, mistah willies, oettinger, Oggar, Frankennietzsche

User avatar
Jordo!
Booze Head
Booze Head
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:04 pm
Location: Blank Generation

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by Jordo! » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:10 pm

^^^ Erghhh... a grimly good political cartoon.

Like Germany, the UK's been kinda bristly about maintaining the EU as well and about offering assistance to displaced persons or absorbing poorer nation's debt (although I'm stunned at the degree of support for strict austerity measures, which historically just decimates everyone, other than the super elites).

Welcome to the right and proper dissolution of old empires. A union is inherently more egalitarian than an empire, and that upsets everyone who feels they have a greater claim to the lion's share of the wealth and prosperity (at least for those in power).

It kinda pisses me off... it's making the US's embarrassing internecine squabbling almost seem acceptable and unavoidable. Europe got its shit together and stopped invading each other's neighbors -- and now here's the reality: Everyone has to share both the wealth and the burdens.

Hopefully, they'll settle down before things get too hostile... of course, I always hope for the same thing here in the States too...
Enjoy it. Destroy it.

User avatar
Palinka (RIP)
Moderator
Posts: 9793
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:29 pm
Location: In The Liquor Cabinet

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by Palinka (RIP) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:29 am

With regard to the Charleston shootings, a Drunkard Scottish Comedian, Frankie Boyle, offers; "his point of view".
"If I had all the money that I've spent on drink, I'd spend it on drink!"
"The trouble with internet quotes is that one can never be sure if they are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln
Kindly listen to this, please.
ドロンケン
ImageImage

User avatar
RyanOwens
Tippler
Tippler
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:09 pm

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by RyanOwens » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:41 pm

What really gets my goat is that nobody is actually ever going to talk about black-on-white crime and this little act of individual violence has made sure of it. Whatever movement this guy was trying to bring out of the woodwork just got a major ass-fucking thanks to his action. Now white nationalists (or whatever they call themselves -- I think Identitarian) are going to spend the next unknown amount of time trying to talk away the shooting and the shooter instead of putting forward their argument.

User avatar
Palinka (RIP)
Moderator
Posts: 9793
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:29 pm
Location: In The Liquor Cabinet

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by Palinka (RIP) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:49 pm

RyanOwens wrote:...Now white nationalists (or whatever they call themselves -- I think Identitarian)
Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em in the ear. If they don't like that, fuck 'em in the other ear!
RyanOwens wrote:...going to spend the next unknown amount of time trying to talk away the shooting and the shooter instead of putting forward their argument.
So? Who gives a flying fuck at a rolling donut if the "White Supremacists" shut the fuck up for a few months?
"If I had all the money that I've spent on drink, I'd spend it on drink!"
"The trouble with internet quotes is that one can never be sure if they are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln
Kindly listen to this, please.
ドロンケン
ImageImage

User avatar
Jordo!
Booze Head
Booze Head
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:04 pm
Location: Blank Generation

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by Jordo! » Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:46 pm

RyanOwens wrote:What really gets my goat is that nobody is actually ever going to talk about black-on-white crime and this little act of individual violence has made sure of it. Whatever movement this guy was trying to bring out of the woodwork just got a major ass-fucking thanks to his action. Now white nationalists (or whatever they call themselves -- I think Identitarian) are going to spend the next unknown amount of time trying to talk away the shooting and the shooter instead of putting forward their argument.
Outside of, I dunno, cell blocks, is there a specific incident of clearly, solely racially motivated black on white crime in the last decade or so to which you are referring?

Rioting against cops doesn't count... that's Black on Blue. Plus, you usually end up destroying your own neighborhood too...

Like you don't mean the chick who took down the rebel flag do you...?
Enjoy it. Destroy it.

User avatar
Frankennietzsche
Juicing Like Jackie
Juicing Like Jackie
Posts: 12352
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:13 pm
Location: Master of the Meatloaf Winds
Contact:

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by Frankennietzsche » Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:25 am

Outside of extreme instances, most black on white or white on black or asian on luxembourgian or whathaveyou crime is just treated as crime. "Extenuating circumstances" are just that. The people who make it a racial deal are the assholes who have a conscious or unconscious need to inflate the instance into something that it isn't.

Most crime, I dare say, is economic.
“Süßen witwe Mutter-Hosen — kommst du hier mit mein knackenpfeife schnell, oder Ich zeige Ihnen mein Zuhälter Hand!”

"I am going to pistol-whip the next person who says 'shenanigans' "

"Rectum? It nearly killed him!"

User avatar
Chimneyfish
Boozing Like Bukowski
Boozing Like Bukowski
Posts: 4025
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 1:22 am
Location: California

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by Chimneyfish » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:15 pm

frankennietzsche wrote:Outside of extreme instances, most black on white or white on black or asian on luxembourgian or whathaveyou crime is just treated as crime. "Extenuating circumstances" are just that. The people who make it a racial deal are the assholes who have a conscious or unconscious need to inflate the instance into something that it isn't.

Most crime, I dare say, is economic.
Do you extend this stance to the people who bring up racial disproportions in the prison population when making the case for bias in the justice system?
"I wasn't driving drunk, I was just over the limit." --Tracy Morgan

User avatar
Frankennietzsche
Juicing Like Jackie
Juicing Like Jackie
Posts: 12352
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 9:13 pm
Location: Master of the Meatloaf Winds
Contact:

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by Frankennietzsche » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:33 am

Chimneyfish wrote: Do you extend this stance to the people who bring up racial disproportions in the prison population when making the case for bias in the justice system?
My statement was in response to the two comments immediately above mine. It seems that in any discussion of an obvious white on black hatecrime, there is always someone who retorts "what about all the black on white crime?" Perhaps I should have quoted them.

In regards to the disproportions in the prison populations, I think that it is a separate issue. I do think that this is also mostly an economic issue, along with education. I have read that a huge reason for this is the federal mandatory sentencing for drug offences
“Süßen witwe Mutter-Hosen — kommst du hier mit mein knackenpfeife schnell, oder Ich zeige Ihnen mein Zuhälter Hand!”

"I am going to pistol-whip the next person who says 'shenanigans' "

"Rectum? It nearly killed him!"

User avatar
Chimneyfish
Boozing Like Bukowski
Boozing Like Bukowski
Posts: 4025
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 1:22 am
Location: California

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by Chimneyfish » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:46 am

I agree that it's a separate issue. I was just wondering whether there is a consistent standard in determining which issues are appropriate or inappropriate to consider racial differences. Otherwise it might come off like the standard is political convenience.

There are definitely issues of economic and educational disparities in prison, but I was referring specifically to the arguments of people who point to differences in race statistics in attempt to illustrate racial discrimination. I wondered whether "making it a racial deal" was also a problem in this context. If it's relevant to discuss whether blacks are overrepresented in the criminal justice system then it seems also relevant to discuss whether blacks are overrepresented in the commission of crimes.

I also think that the economic gap on these issues correlates with the racial gap, rather than disproves it.
"I wasn't driving drunk, I was just over the limit." --Tracy Morgan

User avatar
Jordo!
Booze Head
Booze Head
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:04 pm
Location: Blank Generation

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by Jordo! » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:15 pm

The idea that extreme economic inequity and systemic racial discrimination are both contributing factors is probably the most accurate assessment of the situation (i.e., the poorer and more desperate you are, the more likely to be involved in criminal activity -- both violent and non-violent, and if grabbed as a suspect, you will be treated differently due to the color of your skin in all that follows).

I suppose a so-called "bright" side to the destruction of the middle class is that levels the playing field a (small) bit (and the whole neighborhood -- to rubble), although its a leveling in the wrong direction. More opportunity is a better leveler than less. Similarly, economic loss helped necessitate that more women join the workforce (post war), and that facilitated greater egalitarianism for women by elevating them from housewives to bread winners (again, stagnant wages and layoffs shouldn't have been the mechanism -- but hey, half full glass, right?). Now they just need equal pay...

I digress.

I mean that x on y crime in which the PRIMARY motive is based on prejudice against individuals by virtue of their perceived group membership is different because it is NOT motivated primarily by poverty or desperation, but by hatred. That isn't always evident as it was in the Charleston case, but usually people will cheerfully tell you about their racial bigotry, so it can usually be surmised with a little investigating.

Shooting up innocent people in a church who welcomed YOU despite YOUR OWN differences are not shot down because the shooter needed the money.

Somebody breaks into a house to rob it may or may not have positive feelings towards the race, gender, religion, etc of the robbed, but in this case it's clearly driven more by economics than by prejudice.

That's my point regarding "black on white crime". Show me evidence of race being the primary motivator behind the alleged deed, and ok -- but that hardly ever happens.

In super max prison blocks -- I don't know, but that's not exactly the "normal" population, by virtue of their situation if not temperament, so maybe racial divides are more of an issue. I'd have to look up the latest findings and thoughts on the matter (prisons are overcrowded in the US too -- frequently for non-violent crimes, I might add); I'm not a criminologist.
Enjoy it. Destroy it.

User avatar
Rev. Dead Corpse
Lord of Benders
Lord of Benders
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 2:39 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by Rev. Dead Corpse » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:06 am

Jordo! wrote: Outside of, I dunno, cell blocks, is there a specific incident of clearly, solely racially motivated black on white crime in the last decade or so to which you are referring?

Rioting against cops doesn't count... that's Black on Blue. Plus, you usually end up destroying your own neighborhood too...

Like you don't mean the chick who took down the rebel flag do you...?
Oy vey...

Example A

Example B

Example C

Example D

Example E

Example F

Example G

Race hustlers are stirring up the Thug Culture to incite violence. It's all about power and money for them. The AL Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons of the world. Thug Culture itself isn't necessarily limited to this of superior melanin count either, but is predominantly "Black".

And no... Further gun control will solve nothing. All it will do is create more defenseless victims. Only the law abiding even attempt to follow such laws and none of them are truly "common sense" nor are they supported by ANY kind of a "majority" of Citizens. Machete, bat, and knife attacks go up where guns are "successfully" outlawed. Even then, zip guns and stolen guns still find their way into the hands of criminals who do not follow laws to begin with. Where the Law abiding are fully armed, violent crime drops precipitously. This is born out time and again where idiotic gun laws have been repealed.

So, what is the answer here... Random Nutcases, terrorists, and even common criminals cannot work their evil in a Society whose individual members are fully prepared to take steps to defend themselves and those innocent folks around them. Repeal gun bans, encourage citizens to seek training in their proper use, and stop promoting "Thug Culture" regardless of Race. From an economic standpoint; repeal the billion and one "welfare" programs that drain the economy of the host Nation and perpetuate a sub-Culture of dependance. Allow real free markets to flourish and generate wealth rather than trying to centrally plan everything that even the Soviets figured out does not work.
<insert something profound here>

User avatar
Rev. Dead Corpse
Lord of Benders
Lord of Benders
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 2:39 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by Rev. Dead Corpse » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:32 am

Probably also not a "hate crime", right?

Court records reveal new details from July 4 Metro stabbing
<insert something profound here>

User avatar
oettinger
Ripped Like Reed
Ripped Like Reed
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:23 am

Re: Question regarding Charleston

Post by oettinger » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:23 am

Rev. Dead Corpse wrote:Machete, bat, and knife attacks go up where guns are "successfully" outlawed.
Really? Not around here, no guns allowed, also no knifes. You have to be a complete nutcase walking around with a masochistic agenda to get stabbed in germany. Talk about fists and kicks, ok, you got me. But atleast there`s no evidence in this gun-free country to support your point.
The greatest trouble you could get in is by interfering some hellsangels business. One time we were drinking on the front stairs of some church adjacent to a public place where everyone hangs out and parties. Groups of young girls were present also. Then this big mercedes pulled up, hooker in one seat, pimp rocker in the other. He threatened murder on us drinking in front of jesus. That was crazy. He was white btw.
I do not remember posting that ^^^
Image

Post Reply