Two questions:
I remember reading that the martini was originally served on the rocks. True or just a theory?
Secondly, I believe that the "martini" glass is properly called a cocktail glass. This has changed simply because so many people drink "martinis" out of them, some of them not even resembling a martini in color, taste or aroma. Opinions?
To play devil's advocate a linguist friend of mine said that language definitions change with time and culture, so what was once a martini can now be defined as something different.
History of the martini - a question
Moderators: mistah willies, NYDingbat, Judge, oettinger, Badfellow, Mr Boozificator, Bluto, Smatter Noguts, Patchez
- Resident Asshole
- Drinking God's Good Scotch
- Posts: 2834
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:09 am
- Location: Coming in your back door.
History of the martini - a question
Bourbon is my blood.
"Gren Label will rock on the show for me." bot rehan507
"women want to better express themselves. Dress up as their own performance this will be a lack of confidence." bot clshoo348
select backwards to God, his safekeeping a weapon homeopathy bold deed, president each opposite's cervix. bot klmn619
"Gren Label will rock on the show for me." bot rehan507
"women want to better express themselves. Dress up as their own performance this will be a lack of confidence." bot clshoo348
select backwards to God, his safekeeping a weapon homeopathy bold deed, president each opposite's cervix. bot klmn619
-
- Chugging Like Churchill
- Posts: 5065
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 3:43 pm
- Location: Buffalo, MN
- Contact:
Re: History of the martini - a question
I do not believe the Martini was served on the rock. The design of the cocktail glass is such that it is intended to be held by the stem to keep you from warming the drink with your hands. Most believe that the Martini evolved from a drink know as the Martinez- A drink that seem almost the exact middle ground of the Martini and Manhattan. The first written reference to the Martini is in the late 1880's. Martini & Rossi Vermouth had started shipping to the US not long beforehand and likely had something to do with the name change- That and the fact the recipe had migrated to New York from California. The current recipe probably wasn't fully codified until the early 20th Century when a New York bartender at, I believe it was the Knickerbocker Hotel, who's name also happened to be Martini began serving them.
Sadly, your linguist friend is probably getting close to being right. I personally take exception to people calling everything in served in a cocktail glass a Martini- thus far I have managed to at least get my girlfriend and a couple of bartenders on board. Sex in the City and James Bond share the blame for the fall of the Martini. I will continue to rail in vain against its inevitable demise, even though I prefer the Manhattan.
Sadly, your linguist friend is probably getting close to being right. I personally take exception to people calling everything in served in a cocktail glass a Martini- thus far I have managed to at least get my girlfriend and a couple of bartenders on board. Sex in the City and James Bond share the blame for the fall of the Martini. I will continue to rail in vain against its inevitable demise, even though I prefer the Manhattan.
I can't write like Papa, you know I just ain't able
But if he came in here tonight, I'd drink him under the table -Ronny Elliott
RIP Mayhem, as long as I have a heart you are in it.
But if he came in here tonight, I'd drink him under the table -Ronny Elliott
RIP Mayhem, as long as I have a heart you are in it.
- Chimneyfish
- Boozing Like Bukowski
- Posts: 4026
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 1:22 am
- Location: California
Re: History of the martini - a question
It was invented in the Bay Area
- Wingman
- Chugging Like Churchill
- Posts: 5078
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:44 pm
- Location: on my way to a bar
Re: History of the martini - a question
pretty sure hte origional champagne glass was shaped after jo baker's tits.
Stupid should hurt.
"We're better than mere people, we're DRUNKARDS."
--ThirstyDrunk
"We're better than mere people, we're DRUNKARDS."
--ThirstyDrunk
-
- Chugging Like Churchill
- Posts: 5065
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 3:43 pm
- Location: Buffalo, MN
- Contact:
Re: History of the martini - a question
The Martinez (Gin + sweet Vermouth + cherry garnish) was invented in Martinez, California. The origin of the true Martini is a little more nebulous as I laid out above.Chimneyfish wrote:It was invented in the Bay Area
I can't write like Papa, you know I just ain't able
But if he came in here tonight, I'd drink him under the table -Ronny Elliott
RIP Mayhem, as long as I have a heart you are in it.
But if he came in here tonight, I'd drink him under the table -Ronny Elliott
RIP Mayhem, as long as I have a heart you are in it.
- Chimneyfish
- Boozing Like Bukowski
- Posts: 4026
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 1:22 am
- Location: California
Re: History of the martini - a question
Yeah but I'd say that the guy who came up with the original basis for the drink deserves more credit than the guy who tweaked it a little bit years later. The cocktail invented by Julio Richelieu in 1870 in Martinez had gin, vermouth, orange bitters and an olive. This recipe was printed in The Bartenders Guide in 1887. The Knickerbocker story isn't placed until 1911. I find it hard to believe that some New Yorker came up with almost the exact same drink and gave it almost the exact same name 25 years later just by coincidence.
-
- Chugging Like Churchill
- Posts: 5065
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 3:43 pm
- Location: Buffalo, MN
- Contact:
Re: History of the martini - a question
The Martinez is supposed to go back to 1862, Richelieu himself having tweaked the recipe by adding the olive as the original Martinez was 4 parts Red Sweet Vermouth, 1 part Old Tom (sweet) Gin, Aromatic Bitters and a cherry. Over time the recipe evolved the portions were evened out the Red Sweet Vermouth was replaced by the Dry White Vermouth (Martini & Rossi), the Old Tom Gin was replaced with London Dry Gin and the aromatic bitters replaced with orange bitters. It's not a nearly identical recipe any more than the Manhattan is, the basic frame work is the same but it would be the equivalent saying a Screwdriver and a Greyhound are the same thing. I am simply laying out the most likely scenario for the drink morphing from a Martinez to a Martini. The drink that eventually became the modern standard Martini may have coalesced from the Martinez but it is certainly a distinctly separate entity.
I assume the 1887 guide you refer to is the one by Jerry "the Professor" Thomas of San Francisco. The Professor himself moved from California to New York. His recipe for the Martinez is as follows;
Use small bar glass
One dash bitters
Two dashes Maraschino
One wineglass of vermouth
Two small lumps of ice
One pony of Old Tom gin
SHAKE up thoroughly, and strain into a large cocktail glass.
Put a quarter of a slice of lemon in the glass, and serve.
If the guest prefers it very sweet, add two dashes of gum syrup.
Of course we are only dealing with the American claims on the Martini's invention and ignoring the German and British claims. Short versions of those two.
The Germans- A German musician/composer emigrated to France and changed his name to capitalize on the popularity of Italian composers at the time. His favorite drink was Gin mixed with White Wine. He gained some popularity and some of his French fans imported the drink with them. He died in 1816.
The British- 1) An Italian immigrant come barkeep created it and named after his father.
2) It was created there and named for both the Martini & Rossi Vermouth and its "kick" compared to that of the Martini-Henry rifle that the British infantry was using at the time.
In short nailing down the exact origin of the Martini is nigh impossible.
I assume the 1887 guide you refer to is the one by Jerry "the Professor" Thomas of San Francisco. The Professor himself moved from California to New York. His recipe for the Martinez is as follows;
Use small bar glass
One dash bitters
Two dashes Maraschino
One wineglass of vermouth
Two small lumps of ice
One pony of Old Tom gin
SHAKE up thoroughly, and strain into a large cocktail glass.
Put a quarter of a slice of lemon in the glass, and serve.
If the guest prefers it very sweet, add two dashes of gum syrup.
Of course we are only dealing with the American claims on the Martini's invention and ignoring the German and British claims. Short versions of those two.
The Germans- A German musician/composer emigrated to France and changed his name to capitalize on the popularity of Italian composers at the time. His favorite drink was Gin mixed with White Wine. He gained some popularity and some of his French fans imported the drink with them. He died in 1816.
The British- 1) An Italian immigrant come barkeep created it and named after his father.
2) It was created there and named for both the Martini & Rossi Vermouth and its "kick" compared to that of the Martini-Henry rifle that the British infantry was using at the time.
In short nailing down the exact origin of the Martini is nigh impossible.
I can't write like Papa, you know I just ain't able
But if he came in here tonight, I'd drink him under the table -Ronny Elliott
RIP Mayhem, as long as I have a heart you are in it.
But if he came in here tonight, I'd drink him under the table -Ronny Elliott
RIP Mayhem, as long as I have a heart you are in it.
- Chimneyfish
- Boozing Like Bukowski
- Posts: 4026
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 1:22 am
- Location: California
Re: History of the martini - a question
I agree with everything you've said, I guess I just have a different idea about what "origin" means. I use it to mean where it started- not the last guy in the lineage to tweak it most closely to how we know it today. For example, I would consider Sumerians to be the originators of beer even though what they created way back then doesn't really resemble anything called "beer" that people have been making in modern times. In the same sense, if I was the first bartender to tweak Brutal Hammers into Velvet Hammers and the new drink was hugely popular, I would deserve credit for altering the drink in a way that more people preferred but I wouldn't deserve to go down in the history books as the drink's originator.
If somebody comes up to me and asks for the history of the martini, the story will begin in the Bay Area every time (as it did in your first post). That's why I think "origins" is the right word to use here.
If somebody comes up to me and asks for the history of the martini, the story will begin in the Bay Area every time (as it did in your first post). That's why I think "origins" is the right word to use here.
- Resident Asshole
- Drinking God's Good Scotch
- Posts: 2834
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:09 am
- Location: Coming in your back door.
Re: History of the martini - a question
Who drinks Manhattans up? I prefer my Manhattans on the rocks and my Martinis in a cocktail glass. Though it does make me look like I'm gay.
Bourbon is my blood.
"Gren Label will rock on the show for me." bot rehan507
"women want to better express themselves. Dress up as their own performance this will be a lack of confidence." bot clshoo348
select backwards to God, his safekeeping a weapon homeopathy bold deed, president each opposite's cervix. bot klmn619
"Gren Label will rock on the show for me." bot rehan507
"women want to better express themselves. Dress up as their own performance this will be a lack of confidence." bot clshoo348
select backwards to God, his safekeeping a weapon homeopathy bold deed, president each opposite's cervix. bot klmn619
- Wingman
- Chugging Like Churchill
- Posts: 5078
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:44 pm
- Location: on my way to a bar
Re: History of the martini - a question
this guy---->Resident Asshole wrote:Who drinks Manhattans up?
Stupid should hurt.
"We're better than mere people, we're DRUNKARDS."
--ThirstyDrunk
"We're better than mere people, we're DRUNKARDS."
--ThirstyDrunk
-
- Chugging Like Churchill
- Posts: 5065
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 3:43 pm
- Location: Buffalo, MN
- Contact:
Re: History of the martini - a question
I also prefer my Manhattan's up. I make them in cocktail glasses at home at the bar they tend to be served in rocks glasses. As long as you keep the ice out of it I'm happy. Greatest source of irritation regarding Manhattan's- people who make them with Brandy.
I can't write like Papa, you know I just ain't able
But if he came in here tonight, I'd drink him under the table -Ronny Elliott
RIP Mayhem, as long as I have a heart you are in it.
But if he came in here tonight, I'd drink him under the table -Ronny Elliott
RIP Mayhem, as long as I have a heart you are in it.
Re: History of the martini - a question
Concur with everything here.Oggar wrote:I also prefer my Manhattan's up. I make them in cocktail glasses at home at the bar they tend to be served in rocks glasses. As long as you keep the ice out of it I'm happy. Greatest source of irritation regarding Manhattan's- people who make them with Brandy.
Drink your fucking drink, how about that? Stop the fuckin' presses, isn't it genius??
Casino
Casino
- Wingman
- Chugging Like Churchill
- Posts: 5078
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:44 pm
- Location: on my way to a bar
Re: History of the martini - a question
what the what!?!Oggar wrote: Greatest source of irritation regarding Manhattan's- people who make them with Brandy.
Stupid should hurt.
"We're better than mere people, we're DRUNKARDS."
--ThirstyDrunk
"We're better than mere people, we're DRUNKARDS."
--ThirstyDrunk
-
- Chugging Like Churchill
- Posts: 5065
- Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 3:43 pm
- Location: Buffalo, MN
- Contact:
Re: History of the martini - a question
So, I had my first Martinez last night, due to an absolute lack of Old Tom Gin, I had the bartender add a little sugar. It tasted nothing like I anticipated. It was slightly sweet but not overwhelmingly so, in truth I thought it tasted the way bitters smell. Slightly sweet with sort of an herbal taste. The taste must have come from the Gin but the sharpness of it was muted and it had almost none of the characteristic piny taste. It's a strange cocktail which I may have to play with a bit. There is certainly something there, something intriguing...
I can't write like Papa, you know I just ain't able
But if he came in here tonight, I'd drink him under the table -Ronny Elliott
RIP Mayhem, as long as I have a heart you are in it.
But if he came in here tonight, I'd drink him under the table -Ronny Elliott
RIP Mayhem, as long as I have a heart you are in it.
- Resident Asshole
- Drinking God's Good Scotch
- Posts: 2834
- Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:09 am
- Location: Coming in your back door.
Re: History of the martini - a question
Interesting. Did you have them use as much Sweet Vermouth as the recipe calls for? They used to use a lot more than we do today, it seems.
Bourbon is my blood.
"Gren Label will rock on the show for me." bot rehan507
"women want to better express themselves. Dress up as their own performance this will be a lack of confidence." bot clshoo348
select backwards to God, his safekeeping a weapon homeopathy bold deed, president each opposite's cervix. bot klmn619
"Gren Label will rock on the show for me." bot rehan507
"women want to better express themselves. Dress up as their own performance this will be a lack of confidence." bot clshoo348
select backwards to God, his safekeeping a weapon homeopathy bold deed, president each opposite's cervix. bot klmn619