There's dirty work afoot!

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How many drinks before you say "no" to driving?

One - MADD said so!
1
3%
Two
4
11%
Three
6
16%
Four
9
24%
Five or more
17
46%
 
Total votes: 37

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Post by Palinka (RIP) »

Omar The Tentmaker wrote:and the problem with that is??? What the US needs is a good drunk pres.
I thought you did have one? Oh, wait, no, it was a "pretzel". Not a bottle of Jack Daniel's in any way, shape or form.
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Post by Frankennietzsche »

drinklikerichardburton wrote:The US president doesn't need to be drunk. He can't put together sentences as it is.

(Apologies to those who voted for him. I assume there are actually some people who did ...)
How true.

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Post by Palinka (RIP) »

"If you tolerate this then your children will be next!" - Manic Street Preachers.
"If I had all the money that I've spent on drink, I'd spend it on drink!"
"The trouble with internet quotes is that one can never be sure if they are genuine." - Abraham Lincoln
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Post by Oggar »

THis puts me in the way of thinking of that quote about the Nazi's. "I didn't speak up when...I didn't speak...No one to speak for me..." I can't remember the whole thing right now but somebody must know what I'm talking about.
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Post by drinklikerichardburton »

"... when they came for me, there was nobody left to speak for me."

I think I know the one you mean.

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Post by fdoosey »

That was written by some priest or other related clergy-type. I forget the name though.

It's definitely accurate in showing how MADD and its ilk work. As long as nobody complains (and by this point many are afraid to), they'll keep tightening the screws. By the time someone cries out, it's too late.

So we must go to the front lines and stand defiantly, and even martyr ourselves if need be. Not by driving into a tree, but by some other means which escapes me at the moment.
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Post by Uncle Sal »

this one is a really hard nut to crack...

we would like to see something reasonable in the way of determination of the charge Impared...

but I'm also sure (I hope) that none of us feel anything less than grief over
the death of anyone who was innocently going about their lives at the moment when fate (for lack of my thesourus, Palinka probably has that somehow as well...) met them at the corner...

Tragedy seems to wedge it's way between beautiful moments somehow, and leaves us all wondering why. And then, what are do we do about it?
All mothers would do anything and align themselves with anyone to protect their children. For that is the way of mothers, and most of us have enjoyed that type of protection at one time or another.

We have nowhere to stand from to speak when faced with the photogrhaphs of dead children... and who would want to? We do however want to preserve our way of life, and our perception of beauty...
where do we stand?

there is no one law which could cover every possibilty except prohibition, and that won't happen again I'm quite sure...

How do we develop an argument which does not leave us looking like reckless, careless, unhuman, selfish, crap?
that is not my perception of our community, on a worldwide historical basis.

any ideas?
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Post by Hugh Janblack »

You can't.

Not to get too far gone into it - but the problem is in the proof.

For one thing - we are all different folk - so the idea of "impaired" really has nothing to do with alcohol.

Example: Give me 3 shots of scotch (legally impaired) and give me a field undrunkenness test (no test of BAC). I will pass. Now, give the same test to my undrunk 84 yearold grandmother (that still drives) and she will fail.

Can you imagine the public outcry when Grandma can't drive to the store to buy food for her cats?

Since we react to any test diferently regardless of our BAC - you cannot institue any across the board test for impairment.

It would have to be an objective test for a very subjective thing. Logically, it cannot be done.

If any of you know about AI and what it takes to test true AI - you understand what I mean - you can't just ask an AI model if it can think on it's own - because it can be programed to give you a very specific response. Just like a test of BAC can tell you a number, but has nothing to do with whether or not you are impaired.

So in conclusion, we are pretty much fucked.
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tough nut to crack

Post by PeepingTomCollins »

They are really heavy on DUI and DWI here in Colorado. I know quite a few people yanked after only two or three drinks that went through a lot of hell for DWI, blowing like a .06 or even a .04. People can blow a .04 to .06 after only one drink, 2 in an hour can put the average person at .08 or over.

I don't care much for MADD as an organization. Where once I think they just built awareness about drinking and driving, they have gone full tilt against drinking in general. I do think drinking at any level of excess (different people have different levels of excess) then driving is not a productive decision though and getting ripped and driving is flat out stupid.

I saw a MADD bumper sticker the other day that said "My son was killed by a drunk driver". I wonder if just anyone can buy one of those or if they actually only give them to people who experienced the a death in the family due to drunk driving. Just curious.

Uncle Sal ... I think you stated the issue pretty well. Drinking can be fun, and I can honestly count as some of my best times, drinking to a nice drunk (not blinding or it wouldn't be a memory right?) and having a great night hanging out with good friends. The fact that people do die as a result of people like me and my wife or most all my friends making a poor decision to drive does cast a pretty negative shadow on the whole drinking event. I mean, we're all cool people and none of us are out to cause harm to anyone, but nice people do dumb things with the best of intentions all the time. I think this is probably a discussion that doesn't happen enough in our drinking circle. We always plan the driver strategy before going out (we rotate driving responsibility typically) and we regularly check each other, which I think is way cool and responsible, but we don't talk enough just casually about it and we don't really address it enough for the spontaneous get-togethers at the bar where we are more likely to fuck up. And we don't get on each others' cases enough when we do go a little over the limit and drive.

Those of you that voted 5 or more drinks before not driving, I would be curious to know what kind of time period you are thinking for that level. I drove last night after 5 drinks in four hours (two the first hour, an hour wait, two the third hour, and one the last) and while I felt ok, I wouldn't have done it if my wife hadn't been feeling really ill and needed to go home right away. And I am certain that even while I drove well, if I had been pulled over I'd have blown over a .08. I count my driving last night as an oddity, but no excuses really, it was stupid even though I was feeling fine and it would have been a better idea for me to pace myself as if I might have to drive at any given moment (no more than one drink per hour is my rule when driving and I try to keep it to two drinks or less in three hours most of the time). I was planning to stop after that last drink and hit the water for the next hour as we had a long night planned, but it didn't work out that way.

I honestly wish I could buy a little pocket breath-a-lizer. Does anyone know if they make them ... really compact and cheap?
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Post by Frankennietzsche »

I'm pretty sure they do make small breathalizers and I think someone poted it here a while ago (so it will take a lot of digging, unless someone can remember it.)

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Post by UnkleLemmy »

There was a bar I went to a few times that had amachine where you could get your BAC checked for a quarter. Cool device. Of course we all used it to see who got the drunkest but htats just the way I am.
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Post by Hugh Janblack »

http://www.skymall.com/webapp/skystore? ... d=27032617

100 USD.

I have used those quarter ones before - they really aren't accurate - as the officer kindly pointed out to me.
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Post by PeepingTomCollins »

Thanks for the link.

A hundred bucks? Looks like a nice machine, but damn ... a hundred bucks buys a lot of beer.

Hmmm ... Then again, $6000 in legal fees, a one month jail sentence, and one year revocation of license. Maybe Ill consider it.

We need to make one that is like $30 and get rich. Or even $20. Everyone I know would have one at that price. Maybe we could just make an adjustment to the cell phone and have a breath-a-lizer attached. How convenient would that be?

I would also think there would be a way to do like a litmus strip sort of test ... not necessarily litmus, but a strip that changed different colors when you put the end in your mouth. That might be a more economically friendly approach. Anyone heard of anything like that?
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Post by Hugh Janblack »

The problem is in liability - you can sell a BAC measuring device, but if you make any claims to it's accuracy, then you are liable for a drunk driver. If you make no claims to it, then you can sell a crap product, so name your price. If it doesn't work, or doesn't even claim to work, what good is it?

OK, having opened the liability nonsense....

Here is something I heard (not legal advise given to anyone) for people living in the USA...

If you have had ANY alcohol - always refuse the breath and blood. You can get a work restricted driving license relatively inexpensively. The point is - if you blow, you will get at least a DWI. If you do not blow, you lose your license for 6 months to a year (depending on the state) but you risk no points against your license or your insurance.
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Post by PeepingTomCollins »

The liability thing is a good point and probably worthy of consideration for any product.

Regardless, I sort of meant a product that worked and was dependable, but for maybe $20 or $30 ... field tested with controls. I would still renounce liability though. I don't think the Sharper Image one is expensive as much for the insurance and lawyers they have to maintain but because ALL their stuff is expensive (well ... it is all pretty good quality, but I still think you pay for the name) and perhaps because of that brushed aluminum casing. Pop the same mechanism in nice durable plastic with a similar finish - bam, instant profits.

Anyway ... I hit the net and found this disclaimer attached to the Sharper Image version:

Caution: The impairment effects from a specific alcohol level can vary from driver to driver. Never drink and drive.

I would bet that they don't assume any liability for an arrest or accident. It does however carry a 90-day warranty, so if it doesn't work you can probably get your money back or get a new one.


I found a review of it too. It was very positive. The thing has a .2 BAC cap on the reading. I guess they figure if you were over .2 you wouldn't be able to read the display. There is also a 3 minute wait for the thing to go through a self check / calibration between uses, which doesn't seem too bad, but the reviewer did point out that when you are drunk 3 minutes seems like 3 hours. :)
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