Margaret Thatcher

[GSG]

I have family who were on both sides of the whole stupid bloody argument. Both sides were unpardonable bastards. Nationalism, clingy twitching to the past and religious bigotry at its most exasperasting.

On the other hand, I've been told 'The Iron Lady' was rather good. All I remember of Thatcher is being teased in infant school because one of my middle names is Margaret. Named after my mum, not the milk snatcher.

[coqui_chris]

Both sides were unpardonable bastards. Nationalism, [COMMA] clingy twitching to the past and religious bigotry at its most exasperasting.

Yes. That is how I would classify the two sides of the Conflict as well.

[GSG]

Both sides were unpardonable bastards. Nationalism, [COMMA] clingy twitching to the past and religious bigotry at its most exasperasting.

Yes. That is how I would classify the two sides of the Conflict as well.

Comma...yes. I don't understand. Mind you, I am trying to watch the IT crowd as well.

[Shane-O-Matic]

Thatcher's period in office came before I was born, but she's not at all liked in Scotland. In fact, there will be parties in the street when she dies. Ergo booze.

Not wanting to reignite the debate, but it's important to recognise the reasons for the hunger strike. I'm basing my opinions on hindsight, of course, but I don't think that the British government dealt with the situation properly at all.

[coqui_chris]

Thatcher's period in office came before I was born, but she's not at all liked in Scotland. In fact, there will be parties in the street when she dies. Ergo booze.

Not wanting to reignite the debate, but it's important to recognise the reasons for the hunger strike. I'm basing my opinions on hindsight, of course, but I don't think that the British government dealt with the situation properly at all.

As a person of the Irish Republican bent, I can say that a lot of the material I read on this side does indeed look at the Hunger Strike as a tragedy and a manipulation ... They feel that the Committee did indeed act disingenuously with the public and supporters and most importantly the Strikers to keep a deal secret.

However, they are not decrying the root struggle or the propensity to take up arms in the face of oppression and pursuit of freedom. Rather, they are vilifying a leadership that manipulated a situation not for the pursuit of Irish Freedom but as a means to become Partners With the British and Executors of English Rule Against the Irish.

And the more I read about the Troubles, the more I think this will be my tragedy to tell the history of English cunning and bastardness being the death of a noble Irish rebellion much in the way my grandfather recounted the Tan War and Dev's Statesman's Visit to America in 1919-1920 when he was hitting the Whiskey.

This will go down as another episode of frustration and pain and anguish and martyrdom and Sisyphean attempts at rolling back the rocks of tyranny.



And now not even 15 years after the Good Friday Agreement, Partition seems more solid than ever, the RUC was given a makeover and is more armed and dangerous and sectarian and powerful than ever, some of the most staunch and dynamic Irish Republicans ever have been co-opted and are now Castle Catholics are Shining the Queen's Boots for the English Shilling, more Peace Walls are corralling the working class Catholics into their Townships excuse me "Estates" than before the War, and those who hunger for justice, equal rights and Irish sovereignty are as likely as ever to be Felon-Setted and Interned without charge or trial see Martin Corey, Gerry McGeough and Marian Price McGlinchey.

And though I won't advocate a return to the Armalite or the Bomb, and I surely won't advise a seat in Stormont or Westminster and a "How's yer father?" for the Prince of Wales, I will say the following two tennets hold as true as they ever did:

"They will not criminalise us, rob us of our true identity, steal our individualism, depoliticise us, churn us out as systemised, institutionalised, decent law-abiding robots. Never will they label our liberation struggle as criminal."


"Generations will continue to meet the same fate unless the perennial oppressor-Britain-is removed, for she will unashamedly and mercilessly continue to maintain her occupation and economic exploitation of Ireland to judgment day, if she is not halted and ejected."

[coqui_chris]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, take those two quotes from Yer Man and write an essay that explains the antithesis.

Write an essay saying "The English are benevolent peace keepers and Mother Theresa's to Ireland because ..." blank.




Don't fucking tell me, "The English should continue to tyrranize the Irish because the Provos were meanies!"

[GSG]

To characterise one side as evil despots and the other as pure heroes is at best romantic and idealised and at worst dangerously unfair. The British have at times behaved appallingly, but let's not forget that the IRA murdered many people through appalling terrorist activities of their own in both Ireland and mainland Britain. I doubt very much that they won any hearts and minds behaving like murderous numbskulls. It is NOT OK that they did that, regardless of what the British did.

[Shane-O-Matic]

Thatcher's period in office came before I was born, but she's not at all liked in Scotland. In fact, there will be parties in the street when she dies. Ergo booze.

Not wanting to reignite the debate, but it's important to recognise the reasons for the hunger strike. I'm basing my opinions on hindsight, of course, but I don't think that the British government dealt with the situation properly at all.

As a person of the Irish Republican bent, I can say that a lot of the material I read on this side does indeed look at the Hunger Strike as a tragedy and a manipulation ... They feel that the Committee did indeed act disingenuously with the public and supporters and most importantly the Strikers to keep a deal secret.

However, they are not decrying the root struggle or the propensity to take up arms in the face of oppression and pursuit of freedom. Rather, they are vilifying a leadership that manipulated a situation not for the pursuit of Irish Freedom but as a means to become Partners With the British and Executors of English Rule Against the Irish.

And the more I read about the Troubles, the more I think this will be my tragedy to tell the history of English cunning and bastardness being the death of a noble Irish rebellion much in the way my grandfather recounted the Tan War and Dev's Statesman's Visit to America in 1919-1920 when he was hitting the Whiskey.

This will go down as another episode of frustration and pain and anguish and martyrdom and Sisyphean attempts at rolling back the rocks of tyranny.



And now not even 15 years after the Good Friday Agreement, Partition seems more solid than ever, the RUC was given a makeover and is more armed and dangerous and sectarian and powerful than ever, some of the most staunch and dynamic Irish Republicans ever have been co-opted and are now Castle Catholics are Shining the Queen's Boots for the English Shilling, more Peace Walls are corralling the working class Catholics into their Townships excuse me "Estates" than before the War, and those who hunger for justice, equal rights and Irish sovereignty are as likely as ever to be Felon-Setted and Interned without charge or trial see Martin Corey, Gerry McGeough and Marian Price McGlinchey.

And though I won't advocate a return to the Armalite or the Bomb, and I surely won't advise a seat in Stormont or Westminster and a "How's yer father?" for the Prince of Wales, I will say the following two tennets hold as true as they ever did:

"They will not criminalise us, rob us of our true identity, steal our individualism, depoliticise us, churn us out as systemised, institutionalised, decent law-abiding robots. Never will they label our liberation struggle as criminal."


"Generations will continue to meet the same fate unless the perennial oppressor-Britain-is removed, for she will unashamedly and mercilessly continue to maintain her occupation and economic exploitation of Ireland to judgment day, if she is not halted and ejected."

Nicely put. Today marks the 31st anniversary of two of the hunger strikers (Ray McCreesh and Patsy O'Hara), by the way.

[coqui_chris]

To characterise one side as evil despots and the other as pure heroes is at best romantic and idealised and at worst dangerously unfair. The British have at times behaved appallingly, but let's not forget that the IRA murdered many people through appalling terrorist activities of their own in both Ireland and mainland Britain. I doubt very much that they won any hearts and minds behaving like murderous numbskulls. It is NOT OK that they did that, regardless of what the British did.

That's what I'm saying, though. They did a lot of atrocious things themselves but engaging in a war is to be dragged down to an animalistic level. And this isn't me making an excuse but rather calling a spade a spade.

The U.S. army commits atrocities during war, too. This includes "The Greatest Generation" of which my Poppop whom I named my son after was a part of. I remember him talking about head collecting during the battle of Peleliu long before HBO's "The Pacific" showed WWII's ugly side.


Apparently the IRA are the only terrorists, however, despite RUC, Army, and MI6 collusion with loyalist death squads to murder Pat Finucane and commit the Dublin-Monaghan Bombings which were the worst terrorist attack of the whole Troubles.

[coqui_chris]

I mean shit, Bobby Sands was allegedly on a mission to blow up a furniture store.

That's violence. That's awful. But why does a noble person turn into a mucker? Does it have to do with growing up in an Apartheid state? Maybe because his race and religion predisposed him to state-sponsored pogroms to burn his house down?

Nelson Mandela was in jail himself for acts of terrorism.

[GSG]

Agreed - both sides behaved like ultraviolent bellends. As I said, I've got friends and family on both sides and all I can see is how much pain, misery and hurt it has caused everyone. What a bloody mess.

[coqui_chris]

Agreed - both sides behaved like ultraviolent bellends. As I said, I've got friends and family on both sides and all I can see is how much pain, misery and hurt it has caused everyone. What a bloody mess.

Agreed.

Next round's on me

[GSG]

Agreed - both sides behaved like ultraviolent bellends. As I said, I've got friends and family on both sides and all I can see is how much pain, misery and hurt it has caused everyone. What a bloody mess.

Agreed.

Next round's on me

Slainte - good health to you!

[coqui_chris]

[kowalski]

Heh, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm feeling pretty good about being British at the moment. We've got good history as well as some bad, like any country, but when all is said and done, we can throw a good party :-)