Margaret Thatcher

[Mr. Viking]

I got really excited when I heard the "dr. reverend" was dying in hospital. Sadly he recovered fully. Bugger

[greygoose1]

how's that empire thing working out, britain? let it the. fuck. go.

[Palinka (RIP)]

how's that empire thing working out, britain? let it the. fuck. go.

We did. We left it to you in our will. How is it working for you?

[Mr. Viking]

I think we should stop Britainding (see what I did there) to be a world power

[Palinka (RIP)]

I think we should stop Britainding (see what I did there) to be a world power

Hmmm...I thought that Dave 'n' Nick tacitly proved that we weren't (not to mention Mr Tony's Brown-nosing policy of playing remora to Dubya's shark).

[greygoose1]

how's that empire thing working out, britain? let it the. fuck. go.

We did. We left it to you in our will. How is it working for you?

My point is this.....are 6 counties in ireland the last bastion of the british empire? if so, give those counties up. so many deaths, tragedies, et al. over what? as far as the US goes, guilty as charged. we just use government agencies to install governments.

[Palinka (RIP)]

My point is this.....are 6 counties in ireland the last bastion of the british empire? if so, give those counties up. so many deaths, tragedies, et al. over what?...

Oh, gods...To much detail to go into...Henry II, Oliver "Chuckles" Cromwell, the installation of Scots Protestants, William of Orange (mad Protestant, from whom the current lot of mad Protestants get the colour of their sashes and the name of their order; and we all get the colour of our carrots - but that is another story) the assasination of Michael Collins (probably by his own side (or that nice Mr De Valera (Irish Prime Minister or Taoiseach, 9th March 1932 - 18th February 1948)'s letter of condolence to the German Goverment, in 1945, over the death of Adolf Hitler)) etc. In a nutshell, during the agreements of 1922, the six counties (which, at the time were mainly protestant) felt that they would be unfairly treated by the (mostly Roman Catholic) rest of Eire; so they opted to remain "British" (for want of a better word). Now, fast forward to the 1960s, the growing Roman Catholic population of, what has come to be known as, Northern Ireland, felt endangered by the Protestant population and asked for the Army to come and protect them (not such a clever idea) because they felt that they couldn't trust the (very) Protestant Royal Ulster Constabulary. Cue men with guns on street corners, leading to other men with guns just around the corner; leading to nervousness and, perhaps, inevitably shootings. Then came "Bloody Sunday" when a very nervous young man, in a uniform, in charge of other nervous young men with uniforms and guns, got bloody stupid when faced with a group of (Roman Catholic) protesters (not Protestants) and ordered his lot to open fire. Bloody Stupid. Then came the bombs. Which led to a lot more nervousness on the part of the uniformed men with guns, which led to more shooting, which in turn...oh, you can figure it out. Anyway, no government wants to be shown to be "giving in" to terrorism (and a lot of men with uniforms (who were far too important to have guns) decided that it was a great opportunity for "on the job training", so to speak. So a lot more men with uniforms and guns turned up on the streets of "Northern Ireland", which led to a lot more men with guns (but no uniforms) hiding around those corners that we talked about a bit before.
Fast forward again, to the 1990s and John Major (for it was he)'s government had done the (supposedly) unthinkable and held talks with some of the men with guns but without uniforms. Then came Mr Tony (Blair, the (very) shiny new British Prime Minister), Bill Clinton (PotUS, sax player and intern fondler) and Peter Mandelson (servant of satan, wearing Armani) who took lots of credit for the ceasefire/"peace-process", which had been started by John Major's lot and continued by (the much missed and possibly only sensible person involved in the whole mess) Mo Mowlam. Of course, this made some of the other people with guns but no uniforms (who felt that the Pope was/is the antichrist) a bit cross. After all, they had protection rackets to run, drugs to sell and girls to pimp (in order to make money to buy guns from Libya (amongst others) and, of course (human nature (pardon the oxymoron) being what it is), make themselves rich and comfortable (something that wasn't lost on the other group of men with guns but without uniforms (who rather liked the Pope); and they quickly followed suit with the racketeering etc.). Now, neither set of gangsters/terrorists/freedom-fighters (take your pick, based on your understanding/bias/prejudice) really wanted to give up their, rather lucrative, 'though ultimately murderous, livestyles, so both sides agreed, in principle, to commit peace but only if the other side gave up all their guns first (a nice way of looking good whilst ensuring nothing actually happens that might jeopardise their incomes). Eventually, the British (read, London) government hit on the great (read, crap) idea of "Power-Sharing". By which means they meant to give the Irish government (read, Dublin and/or Boston) an equal chance of being bombed...I mean, an equal say in the administration of "Northern Ireland". So London and Dublin/Boston made sure, after much careful thought and vetting, to put together a group of people who wouldn't, on principle, agree on which way was up. So, London hit upon a brilliant scam...I mean, scheme, that would make "Northern Ireland" self-governing through the same devolution process that had worked so well in Wales and Scotland (i.e. they hadn't). Which brings us upto date; riots over whether the Union Flag (aka the Union Jack) should be flown always, sometimes or not at all.
All the while, the average (mainland) Briton, would love to get shot (if you'll pardon the expression) of the place, as soon as possible, if only there was a way to leave without having a Balkan-style bloodbath on our back door.
As for Empire, neither Ireland nor "Northern Ireland" have ever been part of what was the British Empire (upon which the sun never set - until around 1947, since when it set rather a lot until it eventually stopped even rising sometime in the 1960s). No more than, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands have; they are simply a part of The British Isles (or Great (read, insignificant) Britain).
I hope that this brief run-through is of some help. For futher information click here, or better yet, go to your local library and read a few books on the subject.

[GSG]

Just about covers it I think.

As for dancing in the streets when people die, isn't that a bit, well, shit? From what I know of Thatcher (she went when I was about six I think) there are an awful lot of her policies that I would have been vehemently against had I been out of infant school, being naturally a woolly-minded liberal who shouts loudly and vociferously against many of the current bunch of arseholes' policies. However, I do think think that this business of whooping and cavorting at the news of someone's death is unseemly and unpleasant. To me all you're doing is losing your humanity. You can see that someone's death is for the best or even deserved, but I don't think that type of news is a cause for gleeful celebration unless you're Josef Fritzl's daughter pre-escape. Someone's dead who you never even met for fuck sake, and in all likelihood someone somewhere will be pretty cut up about it.

[Palinka (RIP)]

...As for dancing in the streets when people die, isn't that a bit, well, shit?...

That it is. She was an awful Prime Minister, in terms of her policies; the effects of which can still be felt today. One of her "greatest" policies was "Care in the Community" (which considering that she had destroyed both "care" and "community" wholesale, was pretty much on a hiding to nothing from the get go); a policy by which all of the Mental Hospitals and most Psychiatric Wards were closed in favour of turning the patients out to fend for themselves, whilst giving them buckets of anti-psychotics drugs, the old chemical cosh, and acting surprised when the poor bastards ended up homeless, or imprisoned, or killing themselves (or, worse, in some cases killing other people).
Not to mention the total destruction of British industry. Where once we had been the "Workshop of the World" now we merely provide financial services. All the mines are closed (with a few notable exceptions), all the factories derelict (save those that manufacture arms - we do like to make sure mad dictators are very well supllied with weaponry and tools of oppression) and most of our services (and association football (soccer) teams) in the hands of foreign investors/companies. And as for the media...
However, she was the last British Prime Minister to keep a well stocked liquor cabinet and have regularcocktail/drink breaks (or, at least, the last to be open about it). And regularly got utterly trashed at Party Conferences.
In the end, though, she is now a poorly, demented old widowed woman; who should elicit some spark of sympathy. Don't get me wrong, I hated her policies and I hated her politics. I took to the streets and demonstrated against her various policies (the poll tax, to name but one - this was her idea that instead of paying your local taxes based on the value of your property, you would instead pay them based on the number of adults in the house; so a family of twelve with, say, four people over the age of 18, squeezed into a tiny four roomed terraced house in Lambeth (a district of south London) would pay 4 times as much as the Duke of Westminster rattling around his 23 bedroomed mansion with its lovely views of the Thames and Westminster Palace - for that was her idea of equality).
History will judge her (probably unkindly) but for now she is just a feeble and feeble-minded old lady whose eventual death will cause me no joy (but no sadness either).

[coqui_chris]

I like the Good Doctor's Assessment but I of course am critical of the British party-line that they are just there to Keep The Peace and prevent Balkanization. That sort of whitewashes their role in the conflict, which is very much a subjugator, instigator, and antagonist. Not to mention the idea that the assertion that the collusion with the Loyalist death squads was not part of an over-arching conspiracy as well as the Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday Massacres were just the work of young, untested men who got a little trigger happy vs. strategic actions to alienate the insurgents from their host civilian populations, when these things were textbook British policy as is demonstrated in Kenya, Malaysia, Aden, Cyprus, etc.

Not to mention the Republican indictment that Britain wants to maintain possession of Ireland and facilitate the seperation of two statelets that on their own are economically unfeasible in an effort to better Britain's commercial interests seems to be vindicated by the natural gas reserves in the Fermanagh area and the upcoming G8 Summit to be held there, as well as Shell's Campaign in Mayo of which English investors and capitalists have great interest, plus what's the conviction rate of English Anglo-Irish Bankers again?

Of course there's the whole, "CC, you're just an American, why do you care, why do you guys meddle in our affairs? And you're not even Irish anymore, anyway, just a Plastic Paddy"

Well, that brings me back to my first point. The only reason that England was embarrassed on a large scale by their human rights abuses in Ireland when they were given carte blanche to do the same thing in their other colonies is because of the existence of a powerful Irish-American community where there is a lack thereof of a Kenyan-American lobby or Omani-American lobby.

[coqui_chris]

But that brings me to my SECOND point, a question I've often asked but have never ever ever been given an answer to ... of course that's because my rhetorical question demonstrates the hypocrisy of these criticisms of Irish-American affinity for Irish Republicanism ...

But lets repeat them and see if this time, this one time somebody can try to justify these inherent hypocrisies, hmmmmmm ...

An American of Irish background is too long in a new nation and must disavow himself of identity to his old culture. Lets go ahead and assume that like myself, these Irish-Americans came over during the Genocide Whitewashed as "Famine" in 1847. That's 166 years ago. Long time, right?

But not so long as ...
The Plantation of Ulster was founded in 1606. 1606, ok? That means The Planters have lived in Ireland for 407 years. FOUR HUNDRED AND FUCKING SEVEN YEARS but whereas its unnacceptable for an American of 166 years ago to still consider himself at least partially Irish, a resident of Ireland for four hundred and seven years is completely justified to find himself as British as a person in Finchley, right?

Ok, then ...

Moving on ...

Republicanism takes its earliest establishing point as 1798. And that's 215 years ago. Long time, right.

But not so long as ...
The Battle of the Boyne was fought on July 12, 1690. That's 323 years ago.

215 years? Ugh, give it a rest!
323 years? Huzzah! The Famine is over, why don't you go home????? Somebody play "The Sash"!

[Palinka (RIP)]

Next time you are in a bar, look to your left (or right); ok, see that guy, on his own, having a quiet drink? Yes? Now invest the $5,£5, €5, ¥5 (Whatever) to buy him a drink (ladies, please replace the word him with her - although I do realise that it is, sadly, much rarer for you to just go to a bar, on your own, for a drink - so guys, be really extra nice to the solo woman, why shouldn't they be allowed to drink alone in peace? Keep your distance and keep that wanker, who exists in every bar, away from them. Please?). Get talking. You'll be amazed at how much you have in common! I mean, for starters, you are both the same species, the fact that you are both in a bar should be another factor, and I'll bet that you both have parents. Talk. Drink. Be human. Be together as people. The things that divide us are, ultimately, artificial.

[Palinka (RIP)]

... the things that divide us are VERY real. Things like skin color, religion, tribe, money or lack thereof, nationality, place, philosphy....

And those are all artificial...

[Zippy]

Drinking should bring us together beyond the superficial separations. Talk about booze.

[Screwball]

All of you are 10 percent sexier when you post things you are passionate about.

Unless you start talking about Hitler.

Then you're nien percent sexier.



Peace and Love, ya bunch of wankers.